Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach

From ChoralWiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Merging of translated titles

I noticed there are many duplicate entries here, that I intend to begin merging in the next few days. But what about a work that has translated versions, as for instance:

Couldn't these editions also stay in a single score page, under the original German name, with a note inside specifying their languages? If not, then what about a "disambig" page for these situations? Someone looking for BWV 36 might want to see all editions available before choosing one, regardless of the score language. —Carlos Email.gif 16:17, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

Yes, please do merge these, Carlos, under the original German title. It's a good idea to note the translated titles under "alternative titles" on the score page for searching. It's also a good idea to separate the editions with subtitles (if there are quite a few). --Bobnotts talk 18:05, 30 July 2008 (PDT)

Help in organizing Bach's entries

Hi folks, I need your help with this subject, suggestions will be appreciated!

As I began looking at the apparent "duplicate" entries here, I noticed some are in fact different works (or harmonizations of the same hymn). For instance, Ach Gott und Herr (Chorale) is from Cantata BWV 48/mv.3, while Ach Gott und Herr, wie gross und schwer (Chorale) is Chorale BWV 255. Should the first one be merged into the page for Cantata BWV 48?

Another approach I've found is to gather different "harmonizations" of a chorale in a single page, as for instance Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh' darein (Chorale). In this page, CPDL #3874 belongs to Cantata BWV 2/6, CPDL #3862 to Cantata BWV 77/6 and CPDL #3861 to Cantata BWV 153/1! Should these entries be split by BWV number, but keeping their original title (Ach Gott, vom Himmel, BWV ...), or should we create the corresponding Cantata pages and move them there? —Carlos Email.gif 12:10, 17 August 2008 (PDT)

If kyries and glorias go on the page of the mass they belong to, and Dowland's songs are listed under the title of the printed editions they were taken from, I think chorales should be listed on the page of the cantata or passion they are part of. In many cases, that will obviously result in a cantata page listing all kinds of mouth-watering arias and choir works, but only containing the chorale. So be it, then - it might even be a subtle hint to contributors to do something about that.joachim 17:28, 17 August 2008 (PDT)
Hi Joachim, that sounds correct for me too, let's see if someone else has a different opinion. —Carlos Email.gif 01:47, 22 August 2008 (PDT)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 06:27, 24 August 2008 (PDT)


A chorale lifted directly from a cantata (or passion) should be listed on the page of that cantata (or passion). This means that some chorales with different harmonizations will appear on two or more different pages, in which case it is reasonalbe to have a disambiguation page for the chorale that lists each of the different pages containing versions of the chorale.

Template:Bach - to simplify specifying links to Bach cantata pages.

The Template:Bach is available to simplify the specifying links to Bach cantata pages, both here and elsewhere. To explain it a bit, first note that there is a uniform way of naming the cantata pages, eg.

Cantata BWV 4 - Christ lag in Todesbanden (Johann Sebastian Bach)

That is a lot to type each time one wants to reference such a cantata page - especially if one wants to the link to be displayed differently, as it is on the Bach page, where typing

{{Bach|4|Christ lag in Todesbanden|post}}

provides the required link listed as follows:

Christ lag in Todesbanden, BWV 4

When "post" is replaced by "pre", the link appears as:

BWV 4 - Christ lag in Todesbanden

For other options, see the Bach template page. -- Chucktalk Giffen 22:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


It's a question to me whether chorales should be merged with larger works or kept on their own subpages: I'm tempted to just move Behold! in lowly manger stall (Johann Sebastian Bach) to... Schaut hin? Schaut, schaut, was ist für Wunder dar, of which it is the 5th verse? Or the tune name, Vom Himmel hoch (Funny to link it to a text page, though)? Or just merge to Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248 (Johann Sebastian Bach) and delete, reducing the population at Category:Chorales?
Richard Mix 22:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Cantata titles

A discussion is starting at Talk:Komm, o Tod, du Schlafes Bruder, BWV 56 (Johann Sebastian Bach). Richard Mix (talk) 20:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Richard, I agree with your proposal to simplify the titles of cantatas. —Carlos Email.gif 05:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Carlos has also posted on the forums. Richard Mix (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Cleaned up this page

Some recent work on this page:

  • Reorganized the bottom half of this page.
  • Went over most works, to add BWV to page title, Opus template, publications, composers, and lyricists, as appropriate.
  • Created new subpage Johann Sebastian Bach/Automation, an automated version of this page. This uses dpl commands, rather than the SortWorks function, because they are on a subpage – could easily be converted to SortWorks if this ever becomes the top composer page :-).
  • Created new subpage Johann Sebastian Bach/BWV list using the new template OpusList.

I am not quite done, still have a few works to go over. I am also working on a list of chorales on another subpage, that's still in rough condition. I would welcome any comments or suggestions for improvement. — Barry Johnston (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Pretty impressive,Barry! I wonder about how to list composers of choral tunes, and I'm skeptical about the value of having O caput cruentatum, BWV 244.44 (Johann Sebastian Bach) on Hassler's composer page: much better imo to simply put a link the admirably organized Herzlich thut mich verlangen (Johann Sebastian Bach) next to Mein G'müth ist mir verwirret (Hans Leo Hassler).
You might have noticed the recently added My soul, there is a country (Melchior Vulpius). I think Christus, der ist mein Leben (Chorale), BWV 281 (Johann Sebastian Bach) is a much better merge target than with Christus, der ist mein Leben (Melchior Vulpius). Richard Mix (talk) 05:53, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions, Richard! About composers of chorale tunes, it's a difficult problem, no doubt. I leaned heavily on Bach-chorales and Bach-cantatas for the data. There are many composers and authors who don't get proper credit, because their work is buried within a cantata – do you have the same issue with multi-composer masses? That is why I aim to finish the table of chorales, and figure out a way for all of them to appear on the proper composer or lyricist page. (By the way, a very useful page is the amazing biography list on de.Wikipedia)
About O caput cruentatum, that part of Hassler's composer page is automated, so O caput cruentatum will appear there (unless SortWorks is removed). Hassler would be shown as composer if this were in a hymnal, so I feel it needs to be on his composer page. I'm not quite sure how you envision the link on Herzlich thut mich verlangen (Johann Sebastian Bach), since it already appears on the page – and what to do with the four others in that table? Maybe you could just edit the page the way you want to see it.
Working through the Bach chorale arrangements that appear in cantatas, I read all (well, most) of the discussion. I decided to keep those pages separate that were in a different language, or were a further arrangement on Bach's. The former, different language, because translations were a separate section on Bach's composer page, as many others (and I'm looking forward to complete automation). The latter, further arrangement, in order to give the recent arranger proper credit – and many of them are well-established works (like O sacred head) or are significant musically. So I would not merge My soul, there is a country (Melchior Vulpius) with either page, but it certainly needs updating as to including Bach as arranger (as it appears on the pdf).— Barry Johnston (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)