User talk:Bobnotts/Archive 3

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Copy-pasting lyrics from scores

Was poking through the forums for a bit and came across something about copyright. Being lazy and utterly disgusted with the way some are jerks with copyright, I thought I'd confirm that it is actually ok copy the text out from the score and just dump it onto the page. I did it on Blessed are those that be undefiled (Thomas Tallis) (you've probably noticed already), but I'm not going to do any more until I get an answer.. --Pyuen 03:55, 21 February 2008 (PST)

Hi Pyuen. Thanks for your query. First, let me say that I am not a qualified lawyer in any jurisdiction so any advice that I give can only be based on what I've picked up from using CPDL and general common sense. Nevertheless, I believe that the following is accurate.
Basically, any text or translation which is contributed to CPDL must by either a) in the public domain or b) be contributed with the express permission of the copyright holder. For information about when a text enters the public domain, see this help page (the page is about music but the same goes for texts and translations). In the case of the score that you mention, Tallis's text will be a fairly old translation of part of the Bible which will be public domain (however, modern translations may be subject to copyright). The fact that you have copied the text from a modern edition of the work has no consequence, as far as I can see, because the editor of the edition has not made any alterations to the text. If he/she had translated or edited the text, then it may be wise to seek permission before copying and pasting the text onto the CPDL score page. Having said that, if the edition were licensed under the CPDL license, permission to copy a translation and/or edited text from edition would already have been granted because of the license.
If you have any more queries, please feel free to ask. Also, thanks for your contributions, it's a real help to have the texts of works on the score pages, so I'd encourage you to keep on going!
PS. Thanks for your intelligent addition of the "A to Z" box on Category:Text requests - I forgot to add it when I created the category! Regards --Bobnotts talk 09:35, 21 February 2008 (PST)

Shape Note Meter


I understand the Shape Notes category is a relatively new one. Since so many shape note tunes are Metered, should the meter be included for cross-linking to the hymn/meters department? I've just added two such tunes and was wondering. If so, I can add that. Thanks! Tweedfour 09:23, 24 February 2008 (PST)

Hi Thurlow. I've been a bit busy recently so I was glad to see that Chuck was able to help you with the issue. I'll assume it's resolved unless I hear otherwise. --Bobnotts talk 02:18, 29 February 2008 (PST)

Page counts

Is there a way to count how many times a page has been viewed, or how many times a score as been downloaded? There used to be a counter (albeit reset every month) on the Williams server. Is there a convenient Wiki code to do a continuous count? Paul Marchesano Marchesa 29-Feb-08

Hi Paul. You can find the page count right at the bottom of the page. My talk page currently reads "This page was last modified 23:40, 28 February 2008. This page has been accessed 9,149 times. Content is available..." I don't know of a way to track the amount of times a file has been downloaded, I'm afraid. As for the popular scores log, this has not been reset for a long time so it's very much out of date... That's about the best I can do I'm afriad! --Bobnotts talk 21:17, 28 February 2008 (PST)

Parsons page

Rob, that's a great job you did on the Robert Parsons page! Thanks, -- Chucktalk Giffen 00:52, 1 March 2008 (PST)

categorizing subcats of sacred music, etc.

Hi Rob. Good work! I see you have done most of what I was just beginning to do, and very well, too, I might add. I'm wondering, though, why Category:Sacred music by season is categorized under Category:Sheet music with the sort key " #Sacred music by season" while the others are simply categorized with the sort key " {{PAGENAME}}". Perhaps you could enlighten me? Anyway, thanks for all the good work. -- Chucktalk Giffen 01:41, 9 March 2008 (PST)

Hi Chuck. I spent a good few minutes trying to work out where I had added " Bobnotts" to a category and of course I hadn't - I added " {{PAGENAME}}" but it was read as code by the wiki software even on this talk page! I just added " {{PAGENAME}}" because I was trying to order the categories alphabetically and it was quicker to copy and paste than re-type the category title each time (though maybe they would be listed alphabetically anyway?) Anyway, feel free to alter what I've done, I just wanted to get it off the ground. --Bobnotts talk 22:09, 9 March 2008 (PDT)
Hi Rob. I just put the funny reference above inside a nowiki, sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I've gone through and put in sort keys and added a few sub-subcategories (and put in the description of some that were already "in use", namely Good Friday and Holy Saturday). For completeness, I'll probably add at least a few pther subcategories, including Annunciation, All Saints and Christ the King, which surely belong, and possibly also Reformation, KIngdomtide, Septuagesima, Sexagesima, Quiniquagesima? (less sure about these). -- Chucktalk Giffen 22:43, 9 March 2008 (PDT)
The {{PAGENAME}} is a "magic word" (see Wikipedia for details, though a lot of them don't work on CPDL 'cos we're not using up to date wiki software...) I'm afraid I don't know anything about those other seasons. Should Ash Wednesday be a subcat of Lent? Also, I prefer "Maundy Thursday" to "Holy Thursday" - what are your thoughts? I'm afraid I'm not going to be around for a bit after I've posted this message, should be back on Wednesday. --Bobnotts talk 03:20, 10 March 2008 (PDT)
Yup, I know about {{PAGENAME}}, but wasn't thinking when I typed it before. I moved Ash Wednesday to Lent (sort key 0), and Holy Thursday has been replaced by Maundy Thursday (it has already been used, just no description and subcategorization until now). Be well, and we'll look for you on Wednesday. -- Chucktalk Giffen 04:09, 10 March 2008 (PDT)


Hi Bob! Could you please unprotect the image above for edition? I'd like to upload a version that has both Portuguese and Brazilian flags merged, jut like it has been done to English.png. I think this should be the correct thing to do, because just like with English, the language is only one despite each country differences. For those who still might want to specify which version is been used in a translation (for instance), I could upload a Portuguese flag to File:European Portuguese.png to make a pair with Image:Brazilian Portuguese.png, though I think this level of categorization is unnecessary, as the two "versions" of the language (Brazilian and European) have very little diferences to justify such distinction. Thanks, Carlos 00:19, 13 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi Carlos. Thanks for offering to do this. I have just unprotected the flag as you requested. Please leave me a message when you've finished and I will re-protect the file. It would be good if you could keep to the same dimentions as the existing image (30x16 pixels) as it sits well with the template text which is formatted as "big" and bold. I don't know anything about Portuguese so I'll go along with your suggestion not to have a separte image for "European" Portuguese. Regards --Bobnotts talk 04:16, 13 March 2008 (PDT)
Thanks Bob, it's done, see how it turned out: Portuguese.png. Size is slightly different but it doesn't seem to be perceptible. If you see any problem in this tell me and I'll try to redo it. Only hope now people will stop using the Brazilian Portuguese version, by thinking the Portuguese was only for those living in Portugal. :) Carlos 06:01, 13 March 2008 (PDT)
Hi Robert, here I am again. I uploaded a couple of flags in better resolution or in 3D where it wasn't. There are a few that are protected, could you please unprotect them: Image:Catalan.png, Image:Italian.png, Image:French.png, Image:Portuguese.png, Image:Spanish.png and Image:English.png (that I intend to replace by Image:Old English.png). Thanks! -- CarlosTalk 02:28, 4 May 2008 (PDT)
Hello again, Carlos. I've unprotected the images you requested. I think that Image:Old English.png and Image:Middle English.png should have the St George's Flag instead of the current amalgamation of the Union Flag and the Flag of the USA (as Old English and Middle English were only ever spoken in England and a few parts of Scotland). What do you think? --Bobnotts talk 06:41, 4 May 2008 (PDT)
Hello Bob, I'm already finished with the uploads, thanks. You can see all flags together in this temporary user page. Your suggestion for the Old- and Middle-English flags made a lot of sense, so I edited and uploaded a 3D St George's flag, hope you like it. Regards, -- CarlosTalk 09:16, 4 May 2008 (PDT)
Thanks for those, Carlos. I've re-protected the images. --Bobnotts talk 19:09, 4 May 2008 (PDT)

file trouble

Hi Bob, I've recently uploaded Caro mea by Gascongne, but found out the midi file wouldn't play. I've uploaded another one, which plays like a charm on my pc, but fails to produce any sound when activated from the works page. Any thoughts on what may have gone wrong? Cordially, joachim 20:18, 25 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi Joachim. It plays fine for me, although it does take a bit of time to download (maybe that's related to the extreme lowness of CPDL of late and it's being down for awhile yesterday). -- Chucktalk Giffen 22:19, 25 March 2008 (PDT)
Strrrrrrrange... Still, so much the better if it does play. Thanks for checking. joachim 22:48, 25 March 2008 (PDT)
I like this! I come to my talk page to find queries already answered for me! Perhaps you'd like a full time position, Chuck? :p --Bobnotts talk 21:16, 26 March 2008 (PDT)

Missing Files

These files I uploaded seem to have "disappeared". I uploaded replacements. If these are anywhere to be found they can be deleted...

Johnhenryfowler 23:35, 25 March 2008 (PDT)

I can't see them anywhere, John, and I haven't got a clue where they would have disappeared to... never mind! --Bobnotts talk 21:27, 26 March 2008 (PDT)

Link from CPDL to commercial website without an actual public domain score?

Hi Rob, I'm preparing training aids for "The Crucifixion" by John Stainer. I followed the link on the CPDL page for this work, where a pdf icon is shown, so I expected to be directed towards a web site where a public domain score of this work is available. Instead, I landed onto a website selling choir training aids, where I didn't find any score. Do you think this is fair? I accept the principle that it is good to inform CPDL users about the availability of training aids or other useful things, however I think that directing people to a commercial website following the "dream" of a non-existing public domain score is unfair. What do you think about that? Max, a.k.a. --Choralia 09:04, 27 March 2008 (PDT)

Hi Max. Your message prompted me to do something which I'd been meaning to do for a while. That was to enter the whole of the libretto as well as adding links from the individual movement pages to the main score page and from the main page out. I've also fixed the external links that you mentioned, so now you should only find yourself sent to a commercial site if you click a link under "external links". I agree that all icons should lead to free sheet music and, as I say, I believe I've corrected the problem in this particular case. If you spot any more dodgy links, let me know. I hope your efforts with the training aids go well. Regards --Bobnotts talk 10:54, 27 March 2008 (PDT)
Thank you very much, Rob. I eventually found the pdf (very well hidden on the website, indeed...). The effort on training aids is going well, as the new "Virtual Singer" technology, where the lyrics are also sung by a simulated voice, is being much appreciated by my "users". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Choralia (talkcontribs) on 00:47, 28 March 2008.
I have a mostly complete set of Sibelius scores for Stainer's "The Crucifixion". I never finished it in 2004 when we performed the work. I could post them in their incomplete state if there is any interest. Let me know. Johnhenryfowler 04:19, 1 April 2008 (PDT)
I've been requested to prepare the training aids with reference to a well known commercial edition, so I will digitize it from scratch using my usual optical music recognition tools. If you, John, can send to me your files in MIDI format, I can cross-check my files with yours, so as to identify any difference and thus possible errors, at least on the choral parts. I have automatic tools that can check every individual note and pinpoint any difference. Does it sound good for you? --Choralia 04:52, 1 April 2008 (PDT)
I suppose it's because I'm familiar with the rodeby Church Music site of Rod Mather, because I had no problems finding the PDF for The Crucifixion (one always clicks on the Music Library link at the left), and I never even noticed the Note Perfect training aids for The Crucifixion (and other works) ... just a difference in experience, I suppose. -- Chucktalk Giffen 04:48, 1 April 2008 (PDT)

Question on Stille Nacht (Franz Xaver Gruber) page

  1. ===Editions apparently not of the original work===
  • CPDL #1422: Icon_pdf.gif Icon_snd.gif Encore.

    Is this another work altogether?

Yes, I found it listed as a different work altogether on a web search and it should point to Heiligste Nacht (Franz Xaver Gruber), which does (but I guess shouldn't) redirect to Stille Nacht (Franz Xaver Gruber). Murphyj87 14:28, 4 April 2008 (PDT)

Thanks John. I have replied on the discussion page. --Bobnotts talk 21:14, 4 April 2008 (PDT)


I didn't realize that was a copyright issue. Sorry. I know that was written prior to 1964, but I guess I was in error in it's freedom from copyright. I found it on a gestetner copy from 1964, so I thought it was ok. Murphyj87 12:23, 6 April 2008 (PDT)

Editor vs contributor

Hi Bob, I saw your cleanup notices and need your help to clarify this. In fact I'm only the contributor, not the one who edited those PDFs, but for some reason I was led to believe that the editor field should be filled with the name of the page creator. I have also contributed with a couple of scores that were not mine, was that wrong? (I gave the due credits, though). Thanks, CarlosTalk 12:55, 23 April 2008 (PDT)

On a related point, what about a composer who edits and submits his/her own scores - is he/she not also an editor/contributor (and therefore might also have a Contributor/Editor page, eg. for score count, etc.). -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:03, 24 April 2008 (PDT)
In that case, Chuck, I don't reckon that the composer has edited his own works. For me, editing is a process that occurs some time after composition and it wouldn't be done by the composer. On CPDL, the "editor" field is more for accountability in the case of error reporting. Also, users may come to rely on a particular editor and choose his/her edition over another.
Carlos: nothing wrong in what you've done - it's great that you're helping editors and composers. The only thing is that if you're not the editor/typesetter of the work, then it should be someone else who is noted under "editor". If the work has been contributed by the composer, that person's name should appear under "editor", even though they're not strictly the editor of the work. --Bobnotts talk 04:01, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
Okay, maybe not an Editor, but certainly a Contributer ... note the CPDL Contributors link in the navigation box on the left of every page. And some contemporary composers (editiing their own scores) do indeed respond to suggestions and possible corrections in their scores. Ah well!! -- Chucktalk Giffen 06:09, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
I agree that it is wrong to only recognise the contributions of editors of new editons. Ideally, Category:CPDL Editors should be changed to Category:CPDL contributors. Another database fix to add to the list, eh? For the moment, we could categorise all contributors as "editors" on their user pages. --Bobnotts talk 01:19, 2 May 2008 (PDT)

Drink to me only

Bob, I have added a new record for "drink to me only". In my view the work was clearly originally composed by Callcott. Philip Legge does not seem to accept that. So the "traditional" version within his busking book is probably a harmonisation of Callcott's original. The same apoplies to the later edition added earlier this month. In any event the two version are sufficiently different to merit separate entries. Jgoodliffe

Add New Works form

Hi Robert,

I'm still working working on the form and the results, and I'm a bit puzzled how to 'render' part of larger work. Should it come directly under the title? e.g.
Title: Just a title, Op. 65, No. 7
Part of: Larger work, Op. 65

Also I don't know what to do with the second composer entry, you requested. Yours, Arie 02:10, 1 May 2008 (PDT)

I also noticed that the template {{Acap}} renders as:
Instruments: a cappella
whereas e.g. {{OrgAcc}} just gives the category. IMHO all the templates concerning instrumentation should render the same way, in order to maintain the PHP-script easier. Arie 06:11, 1 May 2008 (PDT)

Hi Arie. I've replied on ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues. Regards --Bobnotts talk 01:10, 2 May 2008 (PDT)

More superfluous links

Hi Bob, thanks for deleting the redirs created with my page moves! If you don't mind, there are still 39 of these to delete. If you look in Recent changes (last 250 edits), you will see them under (move log) on 07-May. They are too many for me to tag each one with a delnow template. Thank you again! -- CarlosTalk 03:03, 8 May 2008 (PDT)

Hi Carlos. I'll jump in here (I hope I'm not too nosey!). You can tag the redirects by typing {{subst:delnow|superfl redir|~~~~}} on the superfluous redirects. That way, we can catch them even if several days (or pages of Recent changes) have elapsed. I'm rather strapped for time right now, so I'm not sure if I'll get to deleting them right away, before Rob has a chance to - but who knows, maybe I will. :) -- Chucktalk Giffen 05:04, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
Hi Chuck, thanks for your tip, in fact I've been using {{subst:delnow|...}} here and there, but this time I moved too many pages to new names and was a bit too lazy to go back to each of the redirects (39 left for deletion) to tag each one of them with this template. I imagine you admins all use the "Enhanced recent changes (JavaScript)" option (under Recent Changes tab in Preferences), and this option is great because it does the hard work of gathering related edits in topics, thus making easier the task of deleting redirects, in this case. :) -- CarlosTalk 20:15, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
Hi Carlos. Basically, I'm taking this approach: if I see lots of page moves in the recent changes, like earlier, then I'll probably go ahead and delete the redirects. However, deleting redirects doesn't really feature high on my CPDL priority list so I won't be going into the special pages to hunt them out (unless I'm particularly bored!) However, if there are pages listed in the immediate delete category, I will aim to delete them if appropriate, within a reasonable time of them being marked as such, even though ordinarily, they wouldn't be a priority to me. Incidentally, I don't use the JavaScript recent changes thing-e-me-bob because I didn't find it particularly useful the last time I switched it on. I'll forgive you for the invasion, Chuck! --Bobnotts talk 00:42, 9 May 2008 (PDT)
Bob, you are right in giving higher priority to nobler tasks! :) In fact this is the kind of dirty job no one really likes doing; the ideal would be if a script could automatically remove items from the 'immediate delete' category from time to time... but I really appreciate the cleaning up you and Chuck are constantly doing. And CPDL servers probably appreciate it too, having less pages to index! :) I'll tag those pages for deletion so you can erase them without hurry, ok? I also started checking the complete list of redirects and tagging those that are junk; these too can be dealt with in no rush. -- CarlosTalk 02:48, 9 May 2008 (PDT)

What is happening at CPDL?

Hi Rob, I noted that you commented out the donation page from the main CPDL page. This seems consistent with my experience: I sent a donation cheque to the address specified in the donation page, and the cheque was returned as undeliverable, as if Raf Ornes were not receiving donations for CPDL.

A number of CPDL issues, described in the "ChoralWiki:Operation and implementation issues" of the Forum, and requiring Raf Ornes' intervention, are pending since some time. I also offered to CPDL a new phpBB3 forum so as to replace, at least temporarily, the old phpBB2 forum that is out of order since many weeks, but nothing happened.

I'm under the impression that CPDL is loosing the energy that Raf provided since its foundation. Am I wrong? What's happening? Can we help?

Max a.k.a. --Choralia 05:24, 12 May 2008 (PDT)

Hi Max. Thanks for your message. I'm fully aware that you tried to donate some money to help CPDL and that you found it impossible to do so. Allow me to thank you for your goodwill in doing this and also in offering a new Bulletin Board for CPDL's use. The offer was very generous. Unfortunately, there are certain parts of CPDL that no-one except Raf can change, and he is not active on the project at the moment and he has not been forthcoming with his reasons for this, nor has he suggested when (or if) he will be active on the project again. One of the parts that only Raf can change is the navigation menu on the left of every page. At the moment, the link for the forums is to the old forums and we can't change that. So, that's the main reason why your kind offer wasn't accepted - we figured it would confuse users even more if CPDL apparently had 2 forums... Other things that only Raf can do is - ensure the site is backed up regularly and completely, update the Media Wiki installation and add new add ons for it, and fix & update the forum.
You're right that a lot of the impetus of CPDL has been lost and a figurehead (like Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia) tends to encourage people to work together in one direction. At the moment, there are not nearly enough active users who are not just contributing new editions and texts and translations. Of course, I don't mean to belittle the efforts of contributors - CPDL would be nothing without its content, but there need to be more people doing admin related jobs such as moving pages, updating pages with the new templates that have recently been introduced, writing new help pages and formaliseing policy. At the present, there are 3 active users doing this stuff - me, Chuck and a very welcome addition to the team, Carlos. And whilst we would love to have the same level of framework in terms of policy as, say, Wikipedia, we just don't have the time to commit to it. Basically at the moment we're doing a little better than treading water. One of the ways we are moving forward is the new Add Works form which, when complete, will make people's lives considerably easier. I'd like to increase participation in CPDL by enhancing the community portal and improving documentation. I'll be able to start doing this in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, it will then become obvious as to how you can help :-) Thanks for your concern and support. --Bobnotts talk 01:08, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
Hi Rob, I definitely have a professional bias. My motto is "no single point of failure", i.e., there must be a back-up for everything, including people. From my professional perspective, having no back-up for Raf is a big risk for CPDL. One year ago CPDL had a major failure. At that time, the forum acted as a back-up resource: even though the scores were temporarily unavailable, the community remained in touch, and this somewhat mitigated the effects of the failure. If the same problem occurs today on the wiki platform, all the communicatons are lost, and it would be worse. So, I appreciate your effort creating better templates, improving documentation, and so on, but I'm more worried about loosing all the work made so far by so many people.
Anyway, let's wait that Raf is back on the project, hopefully before a major problem occurs. If you have any tasks for me, I'll be happy to help. A small suggestion about the phpBB2 forum: perhaps somebody (you? Chuck?) have forum credentials allowing to add a link on the top of the forum page, or even to re-direct the forum to another URL. If so, you may add a link or re-direct the phpBB2 forum to my phpBB3 forum. As the phpBB2 forum remains the "gateway" to the back-up phpBB3 forum, the relationship between the twos (phpBB2 as "primary", phpBB3 as "back-up") should be reasonably clear for everybody. The benefit, of course, is that there will be a back-up forum available in the case of problems on this wiki platform. --Choralia 05:33, 15 May 2008 (PDT)
Can you say more about the transition now that Rafael is withdrawing? In particular, I (and possibly others) would be interested in how this affects the back-up situation--any way we can help with remote back-up even if it isn't 100% comprehensive? Are there higher priority ways people can help than with translations or fixing broken links (maybe even something that can be added to the volunteer page). I'd like to hear more about the some of the tasks you mentioned above (updating pages with recently created templates, writing new help pages, formaliseing policy).
By the way, would Rafael be cool with some update to his user page that tells people where support or feedback should be sent now? Also, his page has an box encouraging people to report broken links or errors. That should be redirected to others. I will understand if you folks have your hands busy and can't get to my more gnat-like questions. --Vaarky 00:04, 27 July 2008 (PDT)
Hi Vaarky. The best way you can help at the moment is to update score pages with templates. I reckon the best way to proceed is to familiarise yourself with all the templates listed here and here. It would also be a good idea to review the following edits that I've made recently which incorporate the new templates: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Those are the sort of "template update" edits that would be most useful, so that scores are categorised as a cappella, or as having piano accompaniment, or in English, or by William Byrd, for example. One of my bug bears is incorrect score icons when it comes to external links - should be Network.png when not pointing directly to a file. These pages contain editions which are hosted externally (often the icons haven't been updated) so if you fancy getting your teeth stuck into something, have a go at that. I'll let you know if you mess something up! Once you've learned the ropes, it would be great if you could add something to the volunteers page.
The submit error box on Raf's page simply invites the user to create a new page with the title that they enter in the box, so I don't see a problem with leaving it as it is at the moment. In terms of backups, I reckon this is probably best continued in the same manner as it has been before. It is one of the procedures that I and others will be looking to review over the next couple of months. Thanks for your enthusiasm! --Bobnotts talk 06:23, 29 July 2008 (PDT)
Thanks for the feedback and excellent ideas. It so happens that I have previously corrected icons (based on my own peeve) when I've noticed that Icon_pdf.gif should have been Icon_pdf_globe.gif or Network.png. This sort of thing is right up my alley. --Vaarky 08:52, 29 July 2008 (PDT)

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